SIS has undergone drastic changes since mosque attack but isn't 'all seeing'

Photo: RNZ / Nate McKinnon

The domestic security intelligence agency says it has undergone significant transformation since the 2019 Christchurch mosque attacks but "it's not all seeing and all knowing".

It comes following an interview on Monday where Nine to Noon spoke to Auckland University associate professor Chris Wilson and researcher Michal Dziwulski, the authors of a new book into the terror attack on 15 March 2019 .

Fifty-one worshippers died at Al Noor Mosque and Linwood Islamic Centre when a terrorist opened fire during Friday prayers.

The book He Told Us: How an Australian Committed Far-Right Terrorism in Christchurch New Zealand, claims opportunities to prevent the atrocities were missed.

The book follows a Royal Commission report into the attacks that was released in December 2020, which found there was no plausible way government agencies could have known about the terrorist's plans ahead of time.

In response to the book's publication, Security Intelligence Service (SIS) Director-General Andrew Hampton told Nine to Noon the 51 shuhada and their families remain at the forefront of their thoughts.

NZSIS Director-General Andrew Hampton.

Photo: VNP/Louis Collins

Hampton said countering violent extremism and terrorism remained a top priority and the SIS welcomed academic research, alongside the finding of the Royal Commission of Inquiry, to help detect and prevent future attacks.

"However, as the authors have acknowledged, this research has been undertaken with the benefit of hindsight and the significant amount of known information about the terrorist's activities.

"We have looked deeply at our operations and undergone a significant transformation since the 2019 attacks. This includes enhanced online capabilities and closer cooperation with domestic partners such as New Zealand Police, as well as international partners."

Hampton said NZSIS is not "all seeing and all knowing" and nor should it be in a free and open democracy.

"We do not conduct mass surveillance of the internet. There is no question that there is a large amount of hateful rhetoric online. The job of the NZSIS is to detect those with the intent and capability of carrying out an attack."

Andrew Little was the minister for the Security Intelligence Service at the time of the attacks.

Photo: RNZ / Angus Dreaver

Current Wellington mayor Andrew Little was the minister for the SIS at the time of the mosque killings and oversaw the government's response to the Royal Commission's report.

Speaking to Nine to Noon, Little admitted that groups such as the Islamic Women's Council of New Zealand had expressed concern to him of threatening behaviour and agreed with the Royal Commission that agencies were late in understanding the reality of the threat.

He said they were aware of it and were starting to build knowledge and understanding as well as a building a profile of what a threat might look like in New Zealand when the attack occurred.

"The threat was apparent, for example, in the United States a lot earlier than March 2019, or even 2018 when the work started in New Zealand."

But Little said the reality was that agencies couldn't monitor the entire internet and didn't know everything that was happening online.

Al Noor Mosque is strewn with flowers and offerings honouring the victims of the terror attack there.

Photo: RNZ / Alex Perrottet

Intelligence worked off leads, and if they didn't have a lead, there was nothing to investigate.

"It's simply not possible to be abreast of everything that's happening on all platforms on the internet."

With the benefit of hindsight, Little said it was clear the mosque terrorist was making comments at the gun club he attended. He also ended up in hospital with an injury from a firearm.

These days, Little said that would have been looked into - but back then, he had a reasonable explanation for his injury and it wasn't a cause for concern.

Little said he was confident the SIS had increased its abilities over recent years and funding had increased to give it more resources to increase capability and capacity.

It was certainly bigger now than it was 10 years ago, he said.

Federation of Islamic Associations chairman Abdur Razzaq.

Photo: VNP / Phil Smith

Meanwhile, the Federation of Islamic Associations has conducted its own similar research, all the way back to 2004, and said the findings from the book are starkly similar.

The Federation's advocacy chairman Abdur Razzaq told Nine to Noon "we still haven't learnt the full lessons".

Razzaq said the Federation started its own research shortly after 15 March 2019 - wanting to find out why it happened and most importantly, how to prevent it ever happening again.

He said a "fundamental flaw" of the Royal Commission was the inability to ask the agencies questions, saying it was a one-sided conversation.

Razzaq said a trigger point for them and something they never believed was the idea that the terrorist was a "lone wolf". He said the day before the shootings, the terrorist had deleted friends off a website he used.

His use of 4Chan was also discussed by Razzaq, telling Nine to Noon that the FBI in the US have a working relationship with 4Chan and have convicted people as a result.

"Why didn't our people?"

Responding to Little's comments about the agencies having enough funding, Razzaq said: "Police asked for counterterrorism funds in 2016. They weren't given it."

Razzaq said these days, agencies were doing a lot and Muslims did feel safer - but the level of hate and the level of crime remained high.

"A Muslim is now being targeted, according to a New Zealand Police report, every 53 hours in New Zealand right now and nothing is happening on that."

He said there needed to be an agency which included academia, civil society, all of government and intelligence agencies.

"We haven't got that so we still haven't learnt the full lessons."

In a statement, a spokesperson for the Department of Internal Affairs said the Royal Commission of Inquiry's role ended when the report was presented on 26 November 2020.

"The inquiry is disestablished once the report has been delivered."

Sir William Young, who led the inquiry, said he had made it a policy not to engage in debate about the report "on the basis that it should speak for itself".

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